Really? Really?!?

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Permalink Reply by hermit crab on December 4, 2011 at 4:14am

The power of the venting thread! Brings me back to old-style OS.

I find the willingness to vent on these people, who are not living some hideously depraved lifestyle but are just seeking to cover their medical bills, really depressing. If it makes you feel better to separate yourself from other people in the country on the basis of some individual moral deficiency you can - but when you do that you don't look at the systemic issue at the heart of the problem, which is that our health care system is Fucked Up, in terms of the level of quality and access the wealthiest country in the world delivers to its people.

I encourage you to check out the Commonwealth Fund's study of US health care in international context,  particularly slides 20-26. That's the report I had in my course files - this one looks like it's the more recent version. Look particularly at slide 52 for evidence that the California couple are not alone in their moral profligacy - in the last 10 years, California has seen a substantial number of people slide into the "uninsured" category such that the state now has among the highest percentages of uninsured adults in the country.

If the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act (aka "Obamacare") survives the Supreme Court challenge, there's some hope that we'll see a little relief from the cost. For people below 400% of the poverty limit (that's an income of $89,000 for a family of four) insurance premiums will be subsidized so that people won't end up paying more than 9.5% of income. That will halve insurance costs for the average family, since 68% of us are in that boat. Of course, if making health care more affordable for most of the country is inherently pinko, then god help us all, we're fucked.

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Permalink Reply by wookie on December 4, 2011 at 5:52am

I've been watching this thread for awhile now, and hermit crab was able to put a finger on what was bothering me.

I was able to read the original plea for help with a "Wow, that's just weird and sad that people feel like they have to do this."  I didn't feel the outrage that other people seemed to be mustering.  Who out there has really planned out their lives to the last dollar, never even accidentally incurring a major expense?  Who hasn't suffered a period of being unemployed or under-employed?  I figured out the other day that I've been working at least part time since I was 14, so pretty much 2 decades solid, except for my freshman year of university (8 months).  I think an awful lot of people who frequent this board have discovered that their education didn't get them the kinds of jobs they wanted, or are close to someone who fits this bill.

I guess this thread makes me feel like we're flinging stones from our glass houses.  

I'm the first to vent about the (paid for by my taxes!) school system that my kids are in, but I am active in it, I understand that it has flaws and good sides, I'm involved, do my own research and am fortunate to be cognitively able to help my kids myself at least a little.  

What I'm trying to express is that I understand seeing red when someone is making continuously poor decisions, or has had ample learning opportunities and training and continues to paint themselves into the same corner.  I understand wanting to smack someone who refuses to see the connection between their actions and consequences.  But to vent out on a stranger who looks like they're really only on the start of that road, make predictions about their future choices, over something that a huge majority of your fellow citizens struggle with?  Whats up with that?

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Permalink Reply by ks on December 4, 2011 at 6:07am

I have to say, I kind of agree with wookie, hermit crab, and floor pie.  I'm a little sad that more of us *don't* feel entitled to these sorts of things than that those other people do. 

However, kommish's "friend" with that email is just a bit too much.  I don't know if I'd be pissed about it or highly entertained by the complete ridiculousness of it.

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Permalink Reply by Mamawho on December 4, 2011 at 8:56am

Yeah, the moral outrage has been pretty fucking precious.

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Permalink Reply by kommishoner on December 4, 2011 at 1:35pm

Thanks for saying that, FP.  Despite me being an attorney and the life duet being a social worker, and each of us working as many hours as it is possible for a human to work (and then some, frankly), we just had to borrow money from my dad to pay daycare for the next few months.  People who look at us probably think we're entitled just like these people, except, apparently, that we have the appropriate amount of social shame about having to ask.  Much like the depression I'm suffering from (situational much?) this is a place where I can share stuff that I might not be able to share with people in my RL because of the stigma about it.  For anybody who has doubts about whether the life duet and I have appropriately "earned" our moral stance on asking for money, I'm happy to privately outline the dirty details of our spending and cost-saving measures, but I don't think that's the point.

 

As for my "friend", I should make clear that I think every pregnant woman and parent should be supported by her community in the ways she and her partner asked for (in her and our case, especially, becuase our community is largely childless).  But she, on several occassions, when we knew nobody in town willing to take care of a baby, offered to help and then flaked at the very last minute (remember when I had to ask for that last-minute ride to the airport, FP? this is who flaked on me), leaving the life duet and I exhausted or sick or unable to go to work or school.  Only after all that did her email go out to us, and only after all that did she hold her baby shower on Mother's Day then get frosty at me when I had plans of my own for that day.

 

There are plenty of entitled people out there that I think it's okay to be bugged by.  I'm not saying the people in the link are not those people.  I'm just saying that I, personally, have empathy for them.  I'm working on having empathy for my friend, but the burns with her are a lttle fresher, so it's hard.  And makes me recognize the people in my life, like FP, who I might not see enough but who have shown up when they said they would and shown support even when they don't have to.

Floor Pie said:

"I'm not saying they're not potentially annoying. I'm just saying that there before the grace of god, and all that."

 

Totally. I actually briefly considered doing something like this when the Aspergers-related bills were beginning to overwhelm us. I ended up privately asking some family members for help, and lucky for us they were willing and able. 

 

It's a very uncomfortable feeling, in part because I did have to acknowledge my own privilege, my sense of Being a Big Financial Failure/Loser despite that privilege,  and, yes, my own sense of entitlement. I wanted the best OT available for my son, even though our little labor-of-love lifestyles haven't afforded us with the kind of health insurance that would cover it. I wanted it anyway.  And it seems to have done the kid a world of good.

 

So, yeah, I'm in no position to judge these people. In fact, I'm slightly envious that they're not ashamed to put it out there like that.

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Permalink Reply by mcglory13 on December 4, 2011 at 10:21pm

I'm sorry, I don't really understand why I'm supposed to feel bad about this. If you want to meet somebody who spent their whole life financially plotting their every move and making decisions based less on personal desire and more on safety, well, hey. Pleased to meet you. That's how I was raised. I spent my whole life obsessed with money and being safe. It wasn't fun, but it's served me well. I'm also an artist at the same time. And one who encountered hospital bills beyond my wildest dreams when my child nearly died at birth. 

I'm not kidding when I say we sold our house because we had to have that money to pay back what we owed thanks to Smudge's NICU bill. We moved into a rental house with rodents. And raccoons. And poison oak so bad I went to the hospital. 

And that's why I say I worry about these people and their forethought. I feel really fortunate we had a house we could sell. We did it without a second thought. We're not having any more kids because I know exactly how much it costs to have a kid if everything doesn't go perfectly. 

I said that I believe all should have insurance. But if you don't have it, you adjust your life choices. That's what I have done. Why are these people better than me? 

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Permalink Reply by Mamawho on December 5, 2011 at 6:25am

They're not better than you. But what you had to do doesn't make you better than them. That's the point here. Losing your insurance when pregnant is a big crisis. 

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Permalink Reply by mcglory13 on December 5, 2011 at 6:28am

Also, to this: 

Yeah, the moral outrage has been pretty fucking precious.

I'm just wondering how that is productive in the slightest? I am always willing to entertain that I am wrong, or not seeing something for it's full dimensions. But that's not exactly anything other than hostilely sneering at people for their opinions and doesn't give me the slightest insight into an alternate point of view. I mean, you of course are free to sneer at me, if you'd rather that than discussion. 

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Permalink Reply by Mamawho on December 5, 2011 at 7:38am

It's just that the liberal privilege here has been like a gigantic neon sign.  And it kind of pissed me off, frankly. We were the same people, who over a year ago, were talking about health care being a human right. If we lived in a civilized country, we wouldn't even be having this discussion. I went entirely without prenatal care for six months because of an insurance error at a crappy time. There wasn't anything we could do about it. Colby couldn't get a new or different job. I was the only care my grandmother had. So I went without.  These people have jobs. They lost their insurance. They have several thousand on hand. They are appealing to friends and family. 

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Permalink Reply by DLBK on December 5, 2011 at 8:41am

Yes, kommish, you're right. I do realize how lucky I am to have the health care I have, especially given that nothing comes out of my paycheck to cover it and I work part-time.

I'm also pregnant, so I can understand their situation and wouldn't want to trade places with them. I know insurance-providing jobs aren't easily available in this economy. I didn't mean to sound heartless.

kommishoner said:

One of them is a LAUSD employee.  That appears to be Los Angeles Unified School District.  A job which, until recently, had benefits.  And jobs with benefits, in this economy, do not magic themselves into existence.  Very highly qualified people look for months and months and months. 

I'm not saying they're not potentially annoying.  I'm just saying that there before the grace of god, and all that.

DLBK said:

I'm all for universal health care and I'd also be willing to pay more taxes in order for it to happen. I had completely free prenatal care and a free birth with my first son, mostly free fertility treatments ($1,000 out-of-pocket, about $40,000 total) for this pregnancy, and I'm getting free prenatal care now. The birth will also be free. I wish everyone else could have my health care. However, I find it maddening that they're choosing to be actors and artists and then turning around and asking for money from other people to cover their expenses.

As for having a baby shower on Mother's Day, it's a cute idea if you're OK with nobody going. I always have plans with my own mother and mother-in-law and sister-in-law and I wouldn't leave my family to go celebrate someone else's. I've also never heard of anyone requesting their friends come clean their house. It's outrageous.

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Permalink Reply by Herasmus B. Dragon on December 5, 2011 at 8:42am

Is the issue causing outrage that a couple of strangers are asking us for money (even though I know they didn't technically ask YOU, Lady Grey) when we've all had rough patches during which we wished someone would give us stuff?  When I read the website, first I thought "oh, how annoying.  They're asking others to pay for their birth".  Then I read it again and thought "Oh, they don't have insurance because they're in jobs that don't provide insurance.  I can completely relate to that, since I took this stressful job JUST to get insurance".  Then I read it again and thought "Oh, this is EXACTLY why we need universal healthcare in this country!  So people like this can get the care they need without having me to give them anything!  Damn those Republicans!" 

 

It's really so frought with emotions nomatter how you read it.  I do think LG's friend was not careful when she sent it on; it should have been targeted to those with deeper pockets.  We all have limited funds with which to share, and it takes a pretty compelling story to make us want to part with our cash.  I can only give to March of Dimes.  Some do Kiva.  Others do Race for the Cure.  Some do Heifer International.  None of these organizations are any better or worse than a couple needing cash to avoid being in debt just to have a child.

 

If you don't want to give them cash, don't give them cash.  Someone else will, or they'll have to find another way to pay for it.  You don't know them, they don't know you, they don't know any of us.  The situation seems a bit too removed to put so much personal feeling into it.

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Permalink Reply by kommishoner on December 5, 2011 at 9:14am

I don't think you did, DLBK - I didn't write my comment very well and it came out directed totally at you instead of being about the entire discussion.  And I feel you - when I was pregnant, I was also working at a legal nonprofit advising people about their ability to access pregnancy-related leave and short term disability benefits, and being pregnant while doing it really gave me an interesting perspective on what I had and what I didn't in relation to others.

I don't think anybody in this conversation is being heartless - I just think that given each of our individual experiences, we have different amounts of room to be empathetic about this particular family's situation. 

DLBK said:

Yes, kommish, you're right. I do realize how lucky I am to have the health care I have, especially given that nothing comes out of my paycheck to cover it and I work part-time.

I'm also pregnant, so I can understand their situation and wouldn't want to trade places with them. I know insurance-providing jobs aren't easily available in this economy. I didn't mean to sound heartless.

kommishoner said:

One of them is a LAUSD employee.  That appears to be Los Angeles Unified School District.  A job which, until recently, had benefits.  And jobs with benefits, in this economy, do not magic themselves into existence.  Very highly qualified people look for months and months and months. 

I'm not saying they're not potentially annoying.  I'm just saying that there before the grace of god, and all that.

DLBK said:

I'm all for universal health care and I'd also be willing to pay more taxes in order for it to happen. I had completely free prenatal care and a free birth with my first son, mostly free fertility treatments ($1,000 out-of-pocket, about $40,000 total) for this pregnancy, and I'm getting free prenatal care now. The birth will also be free. I wish everyone else could have my health care. However, I find it maddening that they're choosing to be actors and artists and then turning around and asking for money from other people to cover their expenses.

As for having a baby shower on Mother's Day, it's a cute idea if you're OK with nobody going. I always have plans with my own mother and mother-in-law and sister-in-law and I wouldn't leave my family to go celebrate someone else's. I've also never heard of anyone requesting their friends come clean their house. It's outrageous.

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