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Is it really bullying?
DP and I were on a long drive yesterday, and he read me an article about bullying. I can't quote the stats exactly from memory, but something like 60% of parents of kids ages 3-7 worry about their kids being bullied and 51% of parents of kids 7-12 say their kids have experienced at least one incident of being bullied - name-called, excluded/ignored, had mean things said about them..
I will be the first to admit that I have lived in fear of my kids being bullied, so I'm squarely in that 60%. But the article got me thinking....does one incident of name calling constitute bullying?
Thinking back to my own childhood, there were 5-6 girls all within a year of me in my immediate neighborhood. We were all generally good friends and played together all the time, but there was a constantly revolving circle of who were Best Friends of the moment. I've been part of the Best Friend clique, and I've been excluded from the Best Friend clique. It sucks to be the one (or one of several) left out. But it never lasted very long and I certainly didn't feel bullied. But based on that article, I would have been considered one of the 51%.
I've always thought of bullying as more sustained, targeted and harmful than the normal capriciousness of elementary school alliances. Has the whole issue of bullying become yet another media-inflated issue designed to instill fear in us? Do you worry about bullying? Do you talk to your kids specifically about bullying? Would you agree with the definitation above ("one instance")? Does it make a difference if the name calling is personal (e.g. "you're....fat, gay, poor" vs. standard schoolyard taunts like "you're a dummy")?
What does OS think?
Tags: bullying
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by mcglory13 on -
I was bullied really, really badly in middle school. Going to school was generally torture. However, even with all the terrible things people said to and about me, I never internalized them and believed that they were true. In general I thought the kids were evil and the lies they made up were stupid (and so anybody who believed or perpetuated them was also stupid). So while going to school was really miserable, I never was suicidal or anything. I guess I always knew that it would get better, as the current campaign goes. And then I made sure to get into a magnet high school that nobody from my middle school went to.
What I'm trying to figure out now is why I never internalized this stuff. If I could figure that out, I could teach that to my kid and then while bullying would suck it wouldn't be such a huge thing. I can't say I really worry about my son being bullied, because I kind of expect it. What I want to give him is the tools to deal with it.
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Permalink Reply by Mommy Monster on -
But it sounds like this was a longer term thing that you had to deal with, from a consistent group of little shits, right? Not like your group of friends with whom you happen to have a fight. I'm wondering if the definition of "bullying" has become so broad that every incident is now considered bullying. And it worries me that that would undermine the seriousness of those experiencing true bullying (like it sounds like you did).
I'm with you though on finding the tools to help them deal with it, not internalize it. If you could bottle it, I'd buy a big jug of that.
mcglory13 said:I was bullied really, really badly in middle school. Going to school was generally torture.
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Permalink Reply by StitchyWench on -
I think you could call it bullying if it happens once. Ro was definitely bullied all through first grade. He was in constant fear of being hurt by another kid in the classroom (well two of them were awful and several of them would regularly bully). Ri had incidences of kids saying mean things or doing annoying things but it was never on a continual basis.
Sometimes, though, one incident is all it takes to change a kid. My daughter owns some pretty fantastic clothes. She was bigger (taller) than the other girls when she was in fifth grade, so she would shop in the Juniors department or at young adult stores last year. Most of the other girls limited their purchases at those stores to AE t-shirts or other brand displaying propaganda, but they couldn't fit in all of the more high fashion stores you can find downtown in Portland or even like the things you find at H&M or Forever 21. She was super cute in any of it, but she usually opted to wear too small little girl jeans or the brand display ts. There was one point where she would not eat (I remember writing to you all for advice on that) because she was literally trying to starve herself to fit in the little kid clothes instead of wearing the beautiful adult size 0 jeans that weren't the kid brands.
I later found out that a lot of this was caused by just a very few comments that she overheard once or twice. She wouldn't wear her beautiful black jacket because a kid whispered that she must think she is goth, to wear black. That one comment caused her to never wear any black to school. A boy once said, "Wow look at those curves" when she wore clothes that were built for young ladies with hips. After that, she'd refuse to wear bras, even though she really needed one. It was all an attempt to not stand out, not get those comments, and those comments were not sustained. They were rare but they hurt and they changed her behaviors.
Thankfully she is at an awesome school now, where everyone else is big and many are very developed (it's a 6-12 school) and as it is an arts school nothing is off limits. You can go high fashion, goth, preschool or just wear your PJs, nobody cares - and from day-to-day they all do something different.
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Permalink Reply by mcglory13 on
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MM, if by consistent group you mean, almost everybody-- then yes. :) You're right, it definitely transcended and was different from navigating individual relationships and the ups and downs that come with friendships between kids.
SW, I had a pair of sneakers my parents got me I only wore once because a bully in my music class (oh hey, I still remember her name!) made a big deal targeting them and I didn't want to provide her with that again. I'm lucky that I had other shoes and that my parents didn't say anything about it. I also remember that music teacher telling me "not to be the victim" which is frankly terrible advice from an adult authority figure that didn't want to get involved. (Among other things, I'm fairly literal and so I was like, "but I AM the victim." heh).
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Permalink Reply by wookie on -
Personally, I think bullying is sustained and either targeted or deliberate. Someone saying to my daughter, "You look like a boy" or "You're weird/stupid/etc." once is not bullying. It's unkind and inconsiderate, and it may hurt her feelings for a long time afterwards, but it's not bullying.
Someone who says something like that repeatedly, or who targets a specific person, or who says it with the deliberate intent to hurt, that is bullying. I think what I am trying to express is that bullying is a verb, and the definition lies with the perpetrator, less than with the victim. Some kids are really sensitive, others this stuff sort of bounces off of. To make a really reaching comparison, if I hit someone accidentally with my car, it's not murder, it's manslaughter (I think... I'm not a lawyer). I've totally hurt them, but not with intent.
Regrettably, bullies are no more evil than anyone else, for the most part. They're just more thoughtless.
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Permalink Reply by The Oracle on -
This is really general, and certainly not the only thing that can be done, but psych studies show that the single most important factor in children surviving abuse/crisis/trauma with their self-worth intact (i.e., resilience) is having an adult who they can consistently rely on in their lives. So just being the parents you are -- letting your kids know you've got their backs, showing them you believe in them, helping them develop and sustain self-worth -- all those things you already do are giving them coping skills.
The second-most important thing is that that consistent adult has a similar supportive adult in his/her life. It doesn't have to be a spouse/partner, it can be a friend or parent or therapist or whoever -- just someone you know has your back and believes in you.
As to the day-to-day coping, I'm not an expert on that part and I know other people here have a lot more experience and knowledge of that than I do. But the long-term stuff? I think you're probably way ahead of the game on that.
Mommy Monster said:
I'm with you though on finding the tools to help them deal with it, not internalize it. If you could bottle it, I'd buy a big jug of that.
mcglory13 said:I was bullied really, really badly in middle school. Going to school was generally torture.
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Permalink Reply by mightyninjamom on -
Yeah, I think I'm going to be in the camp of 'sustained and targeted'. I do think that one or two comments here or there can still have a negative influence, but doesn't create the pervasive sense of fear, anxiety and depression that repeated and continual harassment does. I don't think it matters what is said, if the kid feels targeted though - they are going to feel like prey.
Those were my last two years of middle school. I was nagged mercilessly for being flat chested, (go figure, since I did sports year-round and was a late bloomer to boot.) and then teased about my 'juicy' ass. I was rarely referred to by name - usually only by 'bitch', 'twat' or some other derogatory term. The insulting and harassing went unchecked for 2 YEARS. My parents would not pull me from the school, even though I begged. Just driving up to the building made me feel like throwing up.
Then I got to high school and while it was better, I still took some ragging for being a virgin. WTH...I was 15! But it was one particular guy I had in math class. I was coming home so upset by it, my older sister noticed and (in a moment of sheer older-sister-awesomeness) informed my math teacher what was going on. I still remember him yanking that kid out of class the next day and taking him outside for what was probably the ass-reaming of his life. Then when the teacher got back in the room, he promptly shifted our entire seating arrangement so I didn't have to sit by that guy anymore. Although, he was really nice to me from then on. My life was much easier after that. So, yay for my old math teacher!
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Permalink Reply by hermit crab on -
I think McG's point about resilience and the Oracle and MNM's points about supportive adults are really important and get at what I think is so important about understanding bullying, which is its interactive and context-dependent nature. A child who gets called a name who happens to be emotionally resilient (which I remember reading has a biological basis, in addition to the "nurture" part) and has adults who support them in their efforts to remove the threat, whether that's by removing the source of the threat or helps them psychologically diminish the threat, is going to receive that threat very differently from someone who doesn't have those resources. The notion of a bullying context also makes all the silent bystanders, who are so important to the significance of a bullying incident, important again. Identifying behaviors by themselves isn't really going to reveal the process.
I'm so interested in learning more about the anti-bullying programs that target the total school context as the source of bullying. SW, what did Ro's school do again in response to the bullying dynamic that had evolved there?
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Permalink Reply by StitchyWench on
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I had people tell me Ro was playing the victim, too. Of course, he was playing the victim - there was a kid strangling, punching and kicking him in class, on the playground, and in the bus line EVERY day! He was the victim. You were the victim. And kids just shouldn't have to deal with that.
mcglory13 said:MM, if by consistent group you mean, almost everybody-- then yes. :) You're right, it definitely transcended and was different from navigating individual relationships and the ups and downs that come with friendships between kids.
SW, I had a pair of sneakers my parents got me I only wore once because a bully in my music class (oh hey, I still remember her name!) made a big deal targeting them and I didn't want to provide her with that again. I'm lucky that I had other shoes and that my parents didn't say anything about it. I also remember that music teacher telling me "not to be the victim" which is frankly terrible advice from an adult authority figure that didn't want to get involved. (Among other things, I'm fairly literal and so I was like, "but I AM the victim." heh).
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Permalink Reply by StitchyWench on
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I don't know that I agree with the analogy because bullying or sexually harassing comments are not usually said by accident. It is not as though a kid accidentally calls another kid "fat ass", "gay", or any other long laundry list of names. They say it on purpose, with the intent of either making themselves feel better or more secure, or the intent of making somebody else feel judged or objectified.
wookie said:Personally, I think bullying is sustained and either targeted or deliberate. Someone saying to my daughter, "You look like a boy" or "You're weird/stupid/etc." once is not bullying. It's unkind and inconsiderate, and it may hurt her feelings for a long time afterwards, but it's not bullying.
Someone who says something like that repeatedly, or who targets a specific person, or who says it with the deliberate intent to hurt, that is bullying. I think what I am trying to express is that bullying is a verb, and the definition lies with the perpetrator, less than with the victim. Some kids are really sensitive, others this stuff sort of bounces off of. To make a really reaching comparison, if I hit someone accidentally with my car, it's not murder, it's manslaughter (I think... I'm not a lawyer). I've totally hurt them, but not with intent.
Regrettably, bullies are no more evil than anyone else, for the most part. They're just more thoughtless.
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Permalink Reply by GreenLantern on -
One incident isn't bullying. Repetitive stuff is. I think we've become too passive as a society. I was bullied for a little while, but that stopped when I came up with more creative comebacks than the stupid bullies, or I just popped them in the nose. I don't like to advocate violence, but sometimes a bully needs a good bloody nose or kick to the groin. Sometimes that's the only language they understand, and standing up to them rather than just taking it is the way to go.
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Permalink Reply by wookie on
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They say it on purpose, with the intent of either making themselves feel better or more secure, or the intent of making somebody else feel judged or objectified.
But then we're back to intent. I guess I'm just trying to draw the line (grey it may be) clueless or insensitive behaviour "You look like a boy, pink is a stupid color, your backpack is stupid, you must be goth because you wear black" and "You're a fat ass/twat/slut/whore".
The former is well within the realm of normative stuff kids say to one another every day, and some kids are more sensitive to it than others. But that doesn't make the former bullying.
The latter is said with intent to hurt, diminish, etc. Therefore it is bullying.
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