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I need some education from the masses
This may sound like a ridiculous question from a self-proclaimed Smart Person, but what is Socialism and why is it so freakin' scary to some people?
I've read the Wikipedia article which gives a lot of information and I understand the basic concept, but I can't seem to wrap my head around why this would be a bad thing. I need some input from people who actually paid attention in high school government & history classes.
Is it scary because it would take money from the rich with stronger skills in favor of allowing those with less advantages to realize their full potential (line from the article, not my words)? Is it scary because it's not worked so well in other societies and people are worried about bringing down the US? Or is it scary simply because it's different than what we're used to?
Please educate me. I'm asking this in all honesty, no tongue-in-cheek.
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by wookie on -
I think it's scary because it's different than what we're used too. We like the idea that if we are doing well that we deserve it and if people aren't it's because they are less deserving. That's a nice, comfortable view of the world.
Trouble is, it's only partially true.
Now I am neither smart nor edumacated in the ways of politics or theory, but what I have gleaned over the years is that no particular system or theory works perfectly. Heinlen summed it up well that on one side of the spectrum (dictatorship) you have the theory that one person is wiser than all the rest. On the other side, you have the notion that the wisdom of many is somehow greater than one.
Neither really is perfect. Personally, I feel a more socialist model of government better serves how I think my society (the one I live, work and pay taxes into) should work. It's not perfect, hell, it's barely acceptable, but it's more acceptable than the alternatives I see around the world.
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Permalink Reply by Kiwi on -
Your timing is perfect. One of my Facebook friends linked to this just yesterday. I found it pretty informative.
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Permalink Reply by Herasmus B. Dragon on
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Thanks, Kiwi. So it would seem that a lot of the fear comes from people who worry about going to far and becoming commie pinkos?
What is the Swedish "middle way"?
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Permalink Reply by Mamawho on
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Also, extreme individualism is part of the American identity. It can lend itself to too much pull oneself up by one's own bootstraps-ism, too. That's at odds with collective thought.
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Permalink Reply by kommishoner on -
In my opinion, socialism (imperfect as it may be) requires empathy and generosity toward your fellow community member, and trust that your fellow human can make decisions about their lives that are just as rational and sensible as the ones you make about your own life. Those are qualities that I frequently see lacking in people who freak out about Teh Socializum.
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Permalink Reply by kommishoner on
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This is apropos of nothing, but I will say that thinking about these issues today did remind me to dust off "falling to the communists", which is my favorite euphemism for getting your period. Especially since I fell to the communists today, and am none too happy about it. ;)
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Permalink Reply by hermit crab on -
Fear of being bombed by the Soviets for too many years. Et voila. Before the Cold War, socialists were within the range of political discourse. Afterwards, not so much.
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Permalink Reply by LeastLikely2Breed on -
But would you take tongue-in-cheek if was on the menu?
Oscar Wilde was a socialist.
This is my favorite line "It is immoral to use private property in order to alleviate the horrible evils that result from the institution of private property."
Here's his (very serious) take on the issue:
http://flag.blackened.net/revolt/hist_texts/wilde_soul.html
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Permalink Reply by GreenLantern on -
You see, it really boils down to two different thought processes here. You have one thought process that says people have inherent rights that come from the individual (some people say god), and it is immoral for anyone to infringe upon those rights, whether it be government or other people. Personal responsibility, private property rights, and respect for other individuals are of the highest priority. It also says that government should have a minimal as possible role in society, and you even have some people that think there should be no government at all. Some people think that taxation is theft, and that using government to enforce the will of one group of people on another is immoral, as doing so infringes on natural rights.
The other thought process is basically that we are all in this together, and we need to share the wealth. Some people think that making a profit or having wealth is greedy and bad for society as a whole. Government is used in this situation to extract wealth from those that create it and given to those that have none in order to be "fair". In extreme cases, things like food, shelter, jobs, property, and even health care can be rationed out, again, in the name of fairness. In even more extreme cases, people don't even own their own property, and are told what they will do for a career as they get older in order for a better society. In this situation, you have less personal responsibility, and more control over the lives of individuals by government. Your labor, in this society, is owned by the government.
I personally fear socialism and communism because they have been proven not to work in the past, for the most part. Sure, they make look fine on paper, but in practice, they don't work because you end up giving all the power to a few people, or just one person, and that ends up being bad because ultimate power corrupts. The main problem I have with socialism and communism is that I consider them immoral. I feel they are immoral because in order to exist they infringe on our natural rights because they have to in order to exist. They do this by taking money from you. Now some people say that using the words "they take your money by threat of force" is inaccurate, but in fact, it is true. The fact of the matter is, if you don't pay property taxes, the state will eventually try to evict you from your house. If you chose not to leave your house (since it is yours), they will literally break down your door and forcefully remove you. If you try to protect the home you paid for with violence (which isn't a good idea), they will kill you. The idea here is that if you bought a home, you really don't own that home because you have to pay property taxes on that home, and if you don't, the government takes your home.
Another reason I don't like socialism is because socialism basically says I don't own myself. You see, under socialism, taxes are pretty high. That money come from my labor, and if I'm paying a total of 40% in taxes (state, federal, sales, property, car tax, "fees", local sales tax), then that means that the government owns 40% of my labor. That means I spend about 4 to 5 months a year working for the government. Since they own my labor, by extension, they own me. This is because, again, if I decide not to pay those taxes, I am thrown in jail. Now, one might say, "well, that's the price you pay to live in a civilized society", but what ends up happening is that you get people in power that become unaccountable to anyone that can literally get away with murder. The people have no reasonable recourse (that's even true in the U.S. now) against the government. They have no real say in how the money that is taken from them is used.
I prefer are more free market economy. It's been proven to work. Here's an interesting article on something that we celebrate every year. Thanksgiving. It tells the real story of the first thanksgiving, and the events leading up to it, based on William Bradford's journal.
http://www.hoover.org/publications/hoover-digest/article/6580
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Permalink Reply by Joe Mama on -
And as a pinko liberal, I feel that it is our moral responsibility to take care of those who do not have the opportunities/abilities to contribute in those ways that are rewarded materially in our society or do not have the opportunity/ability to protect themselves. Since our society is too big for any group other than the government to oversee that protection, I am happy to contribute a significant portion of my labor to that task.
Most of us on this board have benefitted significantly from the system in place (through educational opportunities, government programs, and/or unearned social priviledge). Being expected to help support that system as it tries to provide similiar advantages to others is the debt I accrued.
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Permalink Reply by rommie on -
Okay, this is me, trying not to offend anyone. I'm more conservative than most people here, so don't hate me for it, 'kay?
I'm stuck somewhere in between. Wookie and Kommish both had good points. One hand, I like to think that my husband and I are living comfortably, though we're certainly not wealthy, because we're smart and hardworking. We both came from lower middle class families who suck at handling money, but through hard work, prioritizing, budgeting, and all that good stuff, we landed good jobs (okay, mine went away, but I'm fairly confident I could get another if I weren't staying at home now and we were willing to move or commute) and use that money in ways we deem wise. Work hard --> make money --> pay bills --> live happily ever after, right?
Except that's not always how it works, and I know that. There are people who are smart and hard working and good with money who can't find a job that allows them to pay the bills. One one hand: Why not move to an area with a lower cost of living? (Because those areas don't always have the jobs for which you're qualified, like my town and my biology degree.) Why not cut back on your spending? Do you really need extended cable service? (Because some people already have.)
I look at so many people I've known, and I look at almost half of my former paycheck disappearing into taxes, and I get angry. These are not people I randomly see on the streets, but people I know well. One example: a couple with a daughter a few weeks younger than Moose. Neither parent works. This is by choice, because they have decided that they have a right to spend all their time with their child. The woman is pregnant again, also by choice. They are on every gov't assistance program imaginable and live quite well. They buy exotic produce I couldn't dream of wasting money on, then let it rot because they eat out three meals a day. I am not exaggerating, so people don't think that. The guy has loads of musical instruments, expensive ones, while my husband has been saving for years to replace his broken electric guitar, a hand-me-down from a relative. This is my husband, who I met because he was in a band, who is head of a registered non-profit that assists area musicians and organizations in need of help with their sound equipment. The woman gets angry at me for not "wanting the best for my son" by buying expensive, organic, fair trade, fancy toys that cost hundreds of dollars. She does. I go to their house, and I get so jealous...and in my mind, they're buying all these things with my money. My tax dollars, that I worked my butt off to earn while having to leave my beloved son in daycare. I know so many families like this. Families that have things and do things we can't afford, but who don't work and are proud of it. They claim to have a right to not work because their grandfathers were laid off from a production plant that used to be here, and it's not their fault. (wtf?) One lady used to work in a hotel, part of the cleaning staff. When offered a job by one of my relatives, who owns a small cleaning company that pays a very good living wage and gives good benefits, she declined. When asked why, she said she had no desire to work when she didn't need to.
Part of it is just this area, I guess. I don't know. I believe in helping people who can't help themselves or who have fallen on hard times, but it gets muddled for me when I'm forced to help people who very well can help themselves and just won't. It makes me frakking angry, and while that's a purely emotional response, I do believe it's valid.
More of a problem for me is that certain things are valued in this society that translate into money, but that those things are inborn and not something that people can really affect. Looks, intelligence, strength, mental and physical abilities. I can make more money than some of my friends can, even if we both work equal hours at jobs that are equally hard for us, because I'm what is typically considered intelligent. It helps that the fields in which I'm "smart" are technical, scientific ones, and we live in a culture that appreciates science more than art. Why should I make more money working in a lab than someone who is musically gifted and composes symphonies? Why should my husband, an engineer, make more money than his sister who cleans toilets and scrubs floors? Some people would say that it's only right, because there's a demand for the things that come out of labs and not so much for music, and because there are lots of people who can scrub floors and not so many who can build rocket motors. At the same time, all of these people need food to eat and houses to live in, and all work very hard doing things that they're qualified to do.
I guess it comes down to two things for me. In a society run on socialism, everyone needs to be willing to work equally hard, putting equal time and effort into their jobs as they are able. Not everyone will, and I'm not sure what would motivate people if it's not having a house and food to eat. Frankly, no, I don't trust people to make as rational and well thought out decisions about their lives as I do mine. Arrogant, sure, but I'm being completely honest here. Second, though, is the opposite: I do think people have human rights that must be maintained. Capitalism isn't fair in that one hour of work is worth different amounts for different people. A small group might be able to work around this by trading hours of work instead of dollars, I would imagine. How would a large country manage?
Obviously, this is something that worries me a good bit, and I don't know how to reconcile my irritation with those I end up seeing as freeloaders and my desire to make sure everyone has equal opportunities to succeed and find happiness. Ideas?
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Permalink Reply by GreenLantern on
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Rommie,
Some great thoughts, and thank you for sharing your feelings. I know stepping into the liberal pool here can sometimes be like poking a hornets nest with a stick.
The way I feel about things is this. I feel that you should be able to opt into whatever taxes you want in return for government services. I think there would probably be some basic ones that you had to pay for, no matter what, like roads (I know some people advocate privatization of roads, but that's a mess), and maybe even schools. That way, those that feel like taxes are a "debt" they have to pay can voluntarily pay into those systems, such as welfare. People like me could choose to give to whatever charities I want. It is my money, after all. I feel that we are creating a class of tax takers, as your example pointed out.
To address your hourly wage concern:
People are paid based on skill level and demand for a certain job. Right now, the medical field is in desperate need of people, so the pay is higher than average because it is a highly skilled job that is in high demand. Plus, and the harsh truth is, not everyone can be a surgeon. It takes a special person to do that. It doesn't take a special skill or education to scrub toilets. Pretty much anyone can do that. So, given that scrubbing toilets is a low skill job combined with the fact that there is a low supply of those jobs, the pay will be lower (unless you are in a government union). Sure, it may seem unfair, but the brain surgeon would feel it is unfair that someone cleaning bathrooms is making the same amount of money as he is. Becoming a surgeon takes a lot of time and effort and investment to get to the point of being able to open someone up and fix them.
What really bothers me, and looks like bothers you, is that there are people that think they know how to spend your money better than you do, and are willing to use an organization called government to forcefully take that money from you in order to do what they want with it.
Regarding the whole "it's my debt to pay taxes" idea. I have to honestly say that that mentality scares me. That tells me that since you feel it is your debt, that you also feel that it's ok that my young kids are already straddled with tens of thousands of dollars of debt thanks to the federal government, through no fault of their own. Who knows what the dollar value of government debt that they will have to pay will be by the time they are adults. The whole idea of this country is to create wealth, and people can't do that when they spend the first several years, and then up to almost half of every year after that, essentially working for a government that doesn't listen to them and doesn't represent them.
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