God.... how do you believe, if you do?

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Permalink Reply by kommishoner on October 13, 2009 at 9:49am

hermit crab, I wasn't raised Jewish, but this concept of God being about community, relationships, and common experience so completely resonates with me. Thanks for posting this; it's really helped me understand both why I connect so strongly with my friends who are very active in Jewish progressive communities, why I love going to religious services and celebrations, and how I can articulate those values. I really appreciate your perspective!

hermit crab said:

You know, although I am atheist I feel that the Jewish cultural education I got on "God" was about right on. In my particular experience of religious education, God is this unpredictable and often childish character in some rather bizarre stories. Nonetheless, you learn to keep mentioning him in the prayers that come before every meal, in the morning, on Friday nights, when you go to synagogue, and so on - so the term "God" eventually loses all meaning as referring to a particular entity, because it just doesn't make any sense that you would actually pray literally to the weirdo God of the Old Testament. Instead, the word "God" just becomes just the marker of communal experience. Before doing something with the religious community, you pray together. You watch the kids jumping around and the old people creakily getting up and down. You watch the teenagers all huddled up together. You see people dressed up for one another, if it's a holiday. "God" is the way that you talk about your community; "God's" standards are your community's standards, celebrating "God" is celebrating the fact that you're all in the room together, or that you're part of a group of people larger than yourself. Even praying alone is a way to imaginatively tap into that, I think.

When people try to reach out to God because bad things are happening to them, I think they really are trying to reach out to the comfort of other people. And we love you, Ruth, and we're sorry things are so hard right now. Internet hugs aren't real hugs, but even an electronic community is a real community and I know I've gotten much-needed comfort here.

On that theme, http://www.asofterworld.com/index.php?id=483.

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Permalink Reply by Herasmus B. Dragon on October 13, 2009 at 10:00am

I was raised Presbyterian. I believe there's some power watching over me, since my whole life I've had last minute reprieves just as I was about to hit rock bottom. Whether it's called God, Jehovah, Allah, Jeebus, or whatever, it's just a feeling I have. I know that the Bible is more a collection of historical anecdotes than real history, so I do not take it at face value but try to apply the thoughts and teachings to my life. Along the lines of The Golden Rule, but a bit more in-depth. I stay with my church because that's where I was raised, and the community is wonderful.

Hubby has been yo-yoing with his own beliefs and has currently reached Agnostic, so I've taken over the girls' religion. Big O loves church.

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Permalink Reply by zenmom on October 13, 2009 at 10:20am

Well stated. That about covers my feelings on the subject, too. Thanks. :)

As far as the OT, I'm afraid I don't have anything comforting or brilliant to add. I'm an agnostic-atheist (I don't believe in any gods, but I think it's not really possible for anyone to "know" for a fact that there is no such thing as any kind of "higher power".)

This has pretty much been my lifelong belief, so I've never dealt with the "bad things happen to good people ergo there is no god" feelings. Though I can sympathize with them, I can't really relate, because my default position is much like JTC described - there is no rhyme or reason or creator or intelligent design - stuff just happens.

And, no, I don't find that to be a pessimistic point of view.



ks said:

I don't mean it in a derogatory way. I mostly just like the word. I could have just as easily used something else I suppose. But woo is fun to say.

But to clarify what I meant by respecting that other people experience the world differently than I do, I mean that I respect those people who believe that stuff and I'll be polite to them and respectful in that I won't make fun of them or whatever to their face or behind their back to other people and I'll behave appropriately if I find myself inside a church or a temple or whatever. And I'll keep my mouth shut unless I'm in a discussion about specifically those issues and I'm asked what I believe. And I'll teach my children to do the same. But that's just basic good manners.

But I don't necessarily respect those beliefs. I don't think that religion/spirituality deserves any more respect or regard than political belief or any thing else, really. And that if respect for that belief is warranted, then somebody better be able to back it up with some actual evidence and good sense. But people do deserve respect and good manners.

I'm probably saying this all wrong, but I really don't mean to be offensive.

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Permalink Reply by hermit crab on October 13, 2009 at 10:29am

thanks Kommish! :)

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Permalink Reply by Mamawho on October 13, 2009 at 10:40am

MM - I doubt anyone would begrudge you your begging God for your daughter's health. If I had heard in passing a few stories of miraculous healings by a lamppost, I would fervently pray to a lamppost if my child were ill. Really, what else can you do? In times of crisis, if people have even the faintest hint of belief in anything immaterial, chances are good that they will appeal to that entity.

Mommy Monster said:

I actually find a lot of comfort in that feeling of insignificance as well.

My feelings/thoughts/ideas on religion are so mashed up in my mind that's it's hard for me to arcticulate. I do believe in energy, and believe in God as kind of the collective energy of everyone. I don't believe that our energy ceases to exist after we die, I think it somehow transforms or moves to a different place. Or maybe it stays and we who are "alive" just can't see/sense it (I believe in ghosts too). I don't believe in the power of prayer as a means to an end, but more as a meditation and source of comfort. My prayers are always about taking time to feel grateful ("giving thanks" although not necessarily to anyone/anything) or about seeking peace for myself or others. And I believe in the possible transfer of that peaceful energy.

Some of you may remember my swift departure from that about 18 months ago when Meredith was in the worst of her kidney disease crisis and the specter of dialysis/kidney transplant was looming large and I *completely* reverted to my more traditional upbringing. I begged God, Allah, Vishnu - whoever - to make my baby well. But I recognize that as the emotional response borne out of my fear and desperation and don't think that her progress since then is a result of my desperate prayers.

I do wish sometimes that I could go back to my former beliefs. It was easier to feel certain that my Grammie was in Heaven looking down on me and that God was watching over me to keep me from harm. Isn't that really the genesis of all religion? To help humans understand the inexplicable and to lessen their fear? That's why bad things happening to good people is ultimate contradiction with religion.

Ruth, I'm really sorry that things are so bad for you right now. I will pray for you to find peace.

Mamawho said:

I think that as individuals, we're kind of insignificant, but that is a really comforting thought to me.

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Permalink Reply by kanachick on October 13, 2009 at 10:44am

Well, I wasn't raised Catholic or any other really strict religion. I think that's how I still have some belief. I don't expect God to be like Santa Claus and give things to all the good people in the world. I also hate it when people attribute good things to God's blessings because there's no reason why my father in law would lose his battle with cancer while someone else would win theirs. Makes no sense to me.

Of course non-believers can be moral people. I don't care for the aspect of a lot of religions that holds an afterlife out like a cookie so that people behave.

But yeah, you're in a shitty spot right now.

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Permalink Reply by Boring User Name on October 13, 2009 at 1:40pm

I am currently Unitarian Universalist. I originally decided that's what I wanted to be based on Garrison Keillor jokes. All of the jokes pretty much revolved around how all they do is question things. "What do you get when you cross a Unitarian with a KKK member?" "Someone who goes around burning question marks in your yard." Anyway, after I was asking more questions than getting answers in my life, I decided to try one out.

Once I attended a service, the general theme I took away was "God, if he or she exists, doesn't care who you are sleeping with." Obviously, there was a bit more to it, but that the message I needed at the time. We joined more recently looking for that sense of community that other people mentioned about Judaism (and I would add, somewhat Catholicism as well). I've always been a bit troubled that having grown up as a fundamentalist Christian, there was no room for pleasant visits on holidays--they don't really want me back and I don't want to be somewhere I'm not welcome.

Anyway, I clearly don't have any answers. But I was just going to chime in with my story of how I ended up at the place that encourages more questions than answers. Although sometimes it is just annoying, I have to admit. Just answer a question and make a decision, I sometimes want to scream.

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Permalink Reply by DoAsDirected on October 13, 2009 at 2:07pm

I'm willing to believe there was a God - but if there was, he/she moved on to some other place a long time ago.

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Permalink Reply by LeastLikely2Breed on October 13, 2009 at 4:26pm

I'm on Kathy's wavelength.

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Permalink Reply by sabine louise on October 13, 2009 at 9:35pm

This can become the Deathbed Conversion thread I've been plotting for over a month now. I grew up in a Lutheran church. In fact, THE LARGEST LUTHERAN CHURCH IN THE FREE WORLD. That must be done in all caps. Sorry.

I grew up believing. God was the main focus. Jesus was accepted, but not the main focus. His self-sacrifice was examined in small group bible studies. Church was a big part of my life. I was there at least twice a week for choir rehersal, a youth group meeting or 2 and singing in 2 services each Sunday. Faith was personal. The things that reverberated in my soul and connected me to something greater than myself were those transcendant experiences with music when performing with the choir, hiking in the northwoods at church camp or doing community service projects.

Then I went away to college and truly encountered fundamentalism. I tried to become involved in a campus Christian group and was so repulsed by their intolerance. They were the minority on a very liberal campus. Maybe they adpoted an aggressive defensive posture since they felt persecuted and singled out. Don't we all see that now, even when the Religious Right has no reason to need the defensiveness? That's part of their genius! We're persecurted! Stay strong! Circle the wagons! Root out the infidel! But I digress.

I learned that I can still have these sacred and deeply idiosyncratic experiences (the music, hiking, yoga, volunteerism, etc) that lead to deep connections with what is sacred all around me in the allegedly profane world. The connectedness is with the physical world and the people in it.

I've struggled a little bit with what I want to pass on to my son. He attends a Jewish preschool (because it rocks) and he is getting some Old School, yet age appropriate, monotheism along with a moral code that hubby and I like. I kept wanting to find a uber-liberal church, just this side of Unitarianism. Something with which both of us could be comfortable. Husband was raised Catholic and still feels that he's culturally Catholic, but agnostic and socially progressive.

So there I was and I was good with that. Then this last July they found a brain tumor and I faced surgery. Husband laid in bed praying the Rosary and I was up before dawn reading the my favorite verses in Isaiah from my confirmation Bible. Then I recieved a diagnosis of terminal brain cancer, for which the mean life expectancy is 3 to 5 years. That's how this plays out. 3-5 years is the mean survival prognosis for my stage, grade and type of tumor. Those 2 terrible numbers are the middle of the bell curve, when the Dude is 7 to 9 years old and when my husband is still in his mid-40's.

We have many things working in our favor to push my years of survival higher: pre-op symptoms mild, post-op recovery excellent, came through surgery neurologiocally intact, young, otherwise in good health, medically stable, tolerating chemo and radiaiton well. My work now is to push for temporary periods of remission where the tumor shrinks or at least remains stable. If I can do this, I can stay alive for 10, 15, maybe even 20 years and be the statistical outlier. That's now my goal: to become the statistical outlier for my diagnostic group. I want this to be a chronic condition which I manage.

I haven't really gone into the bad things/good people. I'm still stunned that it's happened at all. The recurring thought is, "How did I get us into this mess?" I thought I knew trouble (see: SL's Dad and the Unbearable Life of the Daughter of an Alcoholic; I know I don't have a monopoly on this one). I look back on periods of teen-hood and early adulthood where I sought out the deep & troubled. Now it's on me for real and I couldn't shake it off if I tried.

And I need comfort. And I need to know that my husband and the Dude will have comfort. I need stained glass and hymns and quiet meditation and a place where I know they can have my funeral. I don't know if it can be the same spiritual experience for all of us. I've been stalking a United Church of Christ (the ones who accept gays, not the Kevin Bacon-Footloose-no dancing-no music ones) church a mile from our house and went to a Sunday service with a friend a few weeks ago. They're just this side of Unitarianism. It may work for me and I think the Dude would be happy there. The pastors (a man and woman) are wonderful. They met with me impromptu when I wandered in on a Monday afternoon. They spoke with me as I wept. They showed me their meditation garden with the labrynth thingie you walk . We talked about their congregation's comittment to social causes including NAMI (Nat'l Assoc for Mental Illness), survivors of childhood abuse, the acres of wildflower gardens on their site which they tend to and preserve and their mission to be "open and affirming." They offered me support and a place where I could explore my spirituality with, as the male pastor said, a sense of discipline. Not in the way that one disciplines a child, but discipline as a course of study, an exercise program, intention and commitment.

So here I am, feeling like a sell-out on my near deathbed conversion. It's not being born again or returning to a faith I'd lost. I don't plan to pray for specific lab results or outcomes to procedures. I just need to be still and know that there is something bigger than me that is aware of this, not orchestrating it or responsible for it. That there is some purpose, but I may never know what it could be. It gives others comfort to pray for me, even if they pray in a way that creeps me out. I'll take it. It's positive and it envelopes me in a wash of cosmic woo that I'm not above acknowledging.

I've always though in analogies (rocked that part of the GRE, I bet). I think I'm ready to weave something from my life and I need a loom. This church could become the loom for my warp and weft. Did I get the terms right? I'm still missing part of my brain.

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Permalink Reply by Pauperfamilias on October 14, 2009 at 7:42am

Wow, what can I say ruth? The question you ask is as old as humanity, but that gives zero comfort when you're in pain and feeling abandoned. The key message of Christianity is that God loves you even though bad stuff happens to everyone. A rich, successful person is not blessed with God's favor and a poor, crippled one is not cursed by God. In the eyes of God the things that happen in this life are not the main event at all. That doesn't help you get your kids clothed or fed or pay a doctor's bill, so why should you care, right?

One thing I've come to believe is that we're prepared for the next life by the events that shape us in this one. If I love God as I ought then I also love you, and don't walk past and ignore you in your need. This is the big message Jesus came to change the world with. There are many "Christians" that don't walk the walk and end up failing in their duty to their neighbors. There are many non-believers that don't worship God but understand the basic moral imperative to take care of those in need around them. Reading about your troubles makes me wish I could do more to help, and a little ashamed that I haven't asked you directly about it.

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Permalink Reply by hermit crab on October 14, 2009 at 8:01am

Wow, SL, that is really terrifying. I'm so sorry and also wishing you great strength in doing whatever helps to prolong your life, and also in whatever brings meaning and joy to it.

Don't feel like a sell-out! I know you say you're not returning to a lost faith, but if you were there's certainly no reason not to, if it brings you comfort and the people are good, and the place you describe sounds really lovely. Metaphysical connection to this world and beyond is a specialty of the church and you shouldn't feel you have to create that on your own -- with all you have going on -- right now when you need that.

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