God.... how do you believe, if you do?

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Permalink Reply by Kiwi on October 12, 2009 at 6:47pm

As a heathen non-believer, I've got nothing.

I can't pray for you but I do keep thinking good thoughts for ya. I really hope that things start to turn the corner.

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Permalink Reply by kommishoner on October 12, 2009 at 8:32pm

I don't really believe in God, except in the sense that if we're looking for loving presence, there are plenty of human examples around us (or at least very brief human moments) to do the trick. And in the last few difficult months, I've started to look for meaning and inspiration by trying to think positively about being on a path that leads somewhere good. Kind of a "what if I got hit by a bus tomorrow? how do I want to feel on my last day on earth?" which is maybe kind of dire, but helps me anyway. Also: "I didn't come this far just to park my ass here" which is a variation on "if you're going through hell, keep going" only less smarmy and condescending, I feel.

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Permalink Reply by The Oracle on October 12, 2009 at 10:50pm

My beliefs are amorphous and always in flux, but I can say I do believe in something larger than us -- energy, nature, divinity, whatever. I'm not sure it matters what it's called, except that I'm reasonably certain that it's not a huge bearded guy floating in the sky. My experience of/perspective is that its primary purpose is to connect and unify all beings. I guess I kind of see each of us as a fragment of the whole, and our job is to polish ourselves to the shiniest shine we can during our lifetimes.

As to why bad things happen to people, my assumption is that it's part of our evolution as individuals: How do we rise to the occasion? How do we transform in response to the events around us? How do we shine, even in the midst of the suck? I'm definitely NOT a Pollyanna and don't advocate living in denial: I think it goes way deeper than that. I think it's our job to work out whatever shit is handed to us so we can be more and more connected to the whole.

I could talk for hours and hours on this subject but I'll leave it at that for now.

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Permalink Reply by The Oracle on October 12, 2009 at 10:56pm

Oh -- and this: I don't think the Bigness (energy, nature, divinity, whatever) is necessarily compassionate or judgmental or anything like that. I think it's kind of value-neutral, actually. I don't think it gives a shit what would make us happy or sad or elated or whatever. Yet it doesn't go around judging and punishing either. It simply wants our development, not our happiness or vengeance or anything else.

And frankly, I don't even think it has a separate consciousness that's thinking about this stuff. I think it's just the way the energy of the universe works.

Okay, see, I can't keep away from this conversation. I'll be thinking about it all night now.

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Permalink Reply by hermit crab on October 13, 2009 at 5:45am

You know, although I am atheist I feel that the Jewish cultural education I got on "God" was about right on. In my particular experience of religious education, God is this unpredictable and often childish character in some rather bizarre stories. Nonetheless, you learn to keep mentioning him in the prayers that come before every meal, in the morning, on Friday nights, when you go to synagogue, and so on - so the term "God" eventually loses all meaning as referring to a particular entity, because it just doesn't make any sense that you would actually pray literally to the weirdo God of the Old Testament. Instead, the word "God" just becomes just the marker of communal experience. Before doing something with the religious community, you pray together. You watch the kids jumping around and the old people creakily getting up and down. You watch the teenagers all huddled up together. You see people dressed up for one another, if it's a holiday. "God" is the way that you talk about your community; "God's" standards are your community's standards, celebrating "God" is celebrating the fact that you're all in the room together, or that you're part of a group of people larger than yourself. Even praying alone is a way to imaginatively tap into that, I think.

When people try to reach out to God because bad things are happening to them, I think they really are trying to reach out to the comfort of other people. And we love you, Ruth, and we're sorry things are so hard right now. Internet hugs aren't real hugs, but even an electronic community is a real community and I know I've gotten much-needed comfort here.

On that theme, http://www.asofterworld.com/index.php?id=483.

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Permalink Reply by Mamawho on October 13, 2009 at 6:24am

My beliefs are orthodox (Scripturally and traditionally, not American evangelical) in some areas and heterodox in others. Especially in light of the events in my life of the past few years, I've done some thinking about this.

Nicholas Wolterstorff, a Reformed theologian and philosopher, wrote a book, Lament for a Son, after the death of his son. In it, he deals with the philosophical "problem of evil" on a personal level. He explores a variety of ideas, including that God suffers as well. Suffering is entwined with love, he believes in a redemptive and loving God, so it obtains that God suffers. He does question why love without suffering doesn't happen more often. I love this book, and like his work in general, but there are a few problems. A major one being that love is a human emotion. But that can be worked around, namely, we only have human language to describe deity - perhaps by love, we mean concern for creation.

He also talks about suffering as the "vale of soul-making" - this is the Calvinism talking, I think. I don't know that this book is terribly comforting - it's certainly not filled with platitudes - but it's honest and bare account of when bad things happen to good people.

John Hick has a soul-making theodicy as well. My more heterodox beliefs are in line with some of his - he believes in the possibility for universal salvation, and that doesn't mean through evangelism and missions. There may be other paths, including other faiths.

I don't believe in a God who grants wishes. I don't pray for the Sooners to win. (OK, maybe a little, but I don't mean it.) In fact, I don't really believe that when people pray and pray and pray before they make a decision, that they're doing what God wants them to. This is for a few reasons, a few being that I don't think God cares if you open an Etsy store, or go on a mission trip, or whatever. I think that as individuals, we're kind of insignificant, but that is a really comforting thought to me. We can be significant in our relationships with one another. But as far as the universe is concerned, not so much.

Thousands of years of thought and writing have anthropomorphized God, but I remind myself that God is not a person. So it's probably untoward to assign human value systems to him. (And gender, but I'm lazy.) Also, people are temporal beings. If God as he is assumed to be exists, he is not a temporal being, so our sufferings may not even register. There are some fascinating writings about the non-temporal nature of a deity and what that would entail, but I can't think of the authors right now.

I don't draw many warm fuzzies from my faith. I get those from people. But it also doesn't make sense to me that God blesses some and picks on others - it may seem so, but I think that's our perception. It comes down to what the nature of deity is for me. I know I'm kind of all over the place here - it's been a while since I've articulated any of this, so it's been in an amorphous blob in my brain.

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Permalink Reply by wookie on October 13, 2009 at 6:27am

I've never had trouble with the bad things to good people thing, because good things happen to good people, bad things happen to bad people, and good things happen to bad people.

Stuff happens.

I think it depends on what you mean by relevant god. You already feel that a person can be moral without believing in god. Defining morality (the what and why) is a whole other conversation. I think that not everyone experiences religion the same way, just as not everyone experiences ANYTHING the same way. Not everyone is an emotional soul... some are more analytical. Does that mean that religion, it's community, it's history, it's inspiration, it's (possible) wisdom lack relevance? Can one reject religion and still have faith or belief in god? Can we as people use the teaching of some of these figures to help us find strength and solace in our own lives?

I think maybe you're reaching for something to anchor on why you feel so shat on lately, which is completely understandable. It would be really awesome if there was some almighty reason behind the shit that goes on in life, or a mystical being that could make it all better. But reality doesn't bear out that happening for anyone.

At least you're in good company?

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Permalink Reply by ks on October 13, 2009 at 7:39am

I'm more or less on the same page as JTC.

I grew up Catholic and going to church and doing all the stuff, because that's just what you did. I didn't think about it much, but I never really felt it either. And then once I did start thinking about it and actually paying attention and read the Bible, it didn't make any sense at all. Because the God of the Bible really seems like a sadistic asshole with a warped sense of humor and I couldn't get behind that. And none of the other religions that I knew about made any sense either. And after a while I sort of gradually stopped believing.

And then I got into physics and learning how the universe actually works and now I just don't see the need. I don't have any kind of spirituality at all. No god, no spirits, no energy (outside of the physics/cosmological sense), no woo of any kind. And I know my experience is pretty stereotypical--science makes the atheist sort of thing--but that's really what happened. The more actual, scientific explanations for things that I learned, the less need I saw for anything else. There is a rational, scientific explanation for everything. And if there isn't, that just means we haven't figured it out yet, not that there isn't one.

I know other people experience the world differently from me and I can respect that, and most of the people I love most in the world are believers of some sort, but I don't get it. And I wish they could just leave it alone that Mr. S and I don't have the same kind of worldview that they do and that we will not be raising the kids in any kind of religious tradition other than the very superficial go to the temple with Appamma or go to church with Grandma if that makes them happy and be polite about it.

As for your actual question, why do bad things happen to good people? Well, shit happens and it sucks and there isn't any particular reason why. So *hugs* and know that we've all got your back and wish that it wasn't happening, but I don't have any kind of explanation for it.

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Permalink Reply by ks on October 13, 2009 at 7:44am

I hadn't heard that one before, but yeah, that just about does it for me too. Thanks for that.

John T. Capp said:

I'm an avowed atheist. While I respect a lot of art that was inspired by religion, I have no personal use for religion. I also like Penn Jillette's This I Believe essay from a few years ago.

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Permalink Reply by Mommy Monster on October 13, 2009 at 8:59am

I actually find a lot of comfort in that feeling of insignificance as well.

My feelings/thoughts/ideas on religion are so mashed up in my mind that's it's hard for me to arcticulate. I do believe in energy, and believe in God as kind of the collective energy of everyone. I don't believe that our energy ceases to exist after we die, I think it somehow transforms or moves to a different place. Or maybe it stays and we who are "alive" just can't see/sense it (I believe in ghosts too). I don't believe in the power of prayer as a means to an end, but more as a meditation and source of comfort. My prayers are always about taking time to feel grateful ("giving thanks" although not necessarily to anyone/anything) or about seeking peace for myself or others. And I believe in the possible transfer of that peaceful energy.

Some of you may remember my swift departure from that about 18 months ago when Meredith was in the worst of her kidney disease crisis and the specter of dialysis/kidney transplant was looming large and I *completely* reverted to my more traditional upbringing. I begged God, Allah, Vishnu - whoever - to make my baby well. But I recognize that as the emotional response borne out of my fear and desperation and don't think that her progress since then is a result of my desperate prayers.

I do wish sometimes that I could go back to my former beliefs. It was easier to feel certain that my Grammie was in Heaven looking down on me and that God was watching over me to keep me from harm. Isn't that really the genesis of all religion? To help humans understand the inexplicable and to lessen their fear? That's why bad things happening to good people is ultimate contradiction with religion.

Ruth, I'm really sorry that things are so bad for you right now. I will pray for you to find peace.

Mamawho said:

I think that as individuals, we're kind of insignificant, but that is a really comforting thought to me.

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Permalink Reply by The Oracle on October 13, 2009 at 9:15am

As an aside: ks, I hear that you want to respect other people's beliefs, but when you refer to them as "woo," it suggests to me that there isn't actually much respect there. Correct me if I'm reading it wrong, but "woo" strikes me as rather derogatory.

ks said:

I don't have any kind of spirituality at all. No god, no spirits, no energy (outside of the physics/cosmological sense), no woo of any kind.

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Permalink Reply by ks on October 13, 2009 at 9:41am

I don't mean it in a derogatory way. I mostly just like the word. I could have just as easily used something else I suppose. But woo is fun to say.

But to clarify what I meant by respecting that other people experience the world differently than I do, I mean that I respect those people who believe that stuff and I'll be polite to them and respectful in that I won't make fun of them or whatever to their face or behind their back to other people and I'll behave appropriately if I find myself inside a church or a temple or whatever. And I'll keep my mouth shut unless I'm in a discussion about specifically those issues and I'm asked what I believe. And I'll teach my children to do the same. But that's just basic good manners.

But I don't necessarily respect those beliefs. I don't think that religion/spirituality deserves any more respect or regard than political belief or any thing else, really. And that if respect for that belief is warranted, then somebody better be able to back it up with some actual evidence and good sense. But people do deserve respect and good manners.

I'm probably saying this all wrong, but I really don't mean to be offensive.

The Oracle said:

As an aside: ks, I hear that you want to respect other people's beliefs, but when you refer to them as "woo," it suggests to me that there isn't actually much respect there. Correct me if I'm reading it wrong, but "woo" strikes me as rather derogatory.

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