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Competitive / Perfectionist Kids?
I'm not sure where The Boy got this "Must Win / Must Never Make a Mistake" attitude, but good grief is it causing him some problems this year.
I just found out from his kindergarten teacher that he's been throwing obstacles in the path of kids who run faster than him on the playground. (How "Looney Tunes.") And he becomes inconsolable if he's not the first/best/fastest at any given thing. He can write, but he sometimes refuses to do it for fear of making a mistake. He kicks ass at math, but he gets upset if the teacher offers him some more challenging material that he can't solve immediately.
Those of you who have kids like this, how do you deal with it? What coping skills have you taught them that work?
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by The Oracle on -
Yeah, the Dragon tries to trip people who pull ahead of him in a footrace. It's not pretty.
So far things have come pretty easily to him, but now that he's in "real" school, like with learning and stuff, I can tell it's going to be tough. He's in a multi-age class (3, 4 and 5 year olds, with a few who are just turning 6) and there are kids who are definitely more advanced than he is in certain areas, which is clearly of an affront to his dignity. And since he has the attention span of a hummingbird, he pretty much just gives up before he starts.
Since he'll be in the same classroom next year, but in the older cohort, I'm hoping he'll gain some confidence and see how practicing over a long period of time leads to skills. The class is actually structured so that the older kids teach the younger kids, so that seems like something to aspire to. Maybe The Boy needs to teach in order to feel more control over the material? Could he come home and teach Little Girl? Or his dolls/action figures/animals? Or you? That's my only idea right now.
And really just a long way of saying I don't have any answers, just commiseration.
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Permalink Reply by mightyninjamom on -
Little B had a milder version of that phase. I had to sit him down and tell him that he wasn't a bad person for not being able to do things perfectly on his first try and that I didn't think less of him for not 'winning', and neither did anyone else. It's a trying phase, isn't it?
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Permalink Reply by sockiboo on -
we recently stayed with some friends who have a five year old who's similarly inconsolable--tears, franticness--when he doesn't win, or his project is imperfect, or his score on a game drops. it gave us a lot of pause . . . for me, maybe, because it's something that's gotten in my own way a lot. this poor kid couldn't even enjoy moving up a level in Rock Band because his score inevitably went down as he coped with the greater difficulty . . . but instead of a fun challenge, it was a heart-rending disaster. it made me wonder how we'd deal if/when the chickpea has similar difficulties . . . i hate the idea of passing my perfectionism on. maybe in the meantime, i should work on it myself.
also, a five and two year old duetting to "Living on a Prayer"? priceless, at any score.
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Permalink Reply by wookie on -
I'm not sure what to say... neither of my kids (both girls, incedentally) had had this particular issue of competitiveness. Perfectionism, yes, but not in the comparison field.
That kind of behavior (throwing obstacles in front of others/tripping) *if done by an adult* would be the height of assholery. What does it mean when it's seen in a very young child? At what age, cognitively, emotionally and socially are kids able to understand that no matter how well or not well you do at something, that sabotaging or hurting other people is NOT OKAY? I'm not intending to be "judgy" although I would very much understand if this comment made people defensive. I would like to explore the idea and get more information about how a child's development plays into this behavior.
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Permalink Reply by The Oracle on
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It's a good question. The Dragon started tripping competitors around age two, maybe, when he was being exposed to more kids his age, which I imagine naturally led to some comparison, which can easily lead to competition. To be fair, he mostly doesn't do it anymore, but thinking back on when it and similar behaviors have come up again, it's been at particularly stressful times in his life like, say, the last six months.
From what I know about early development, offhand I'd say that (imagine me in spectacles, tapping a pointer against the blackboard) it's a threat to the developing ego* when another person is better at something, and we'll find whatever way we can to make sure we're the best at what we do. It especially makes sense that the ego feels threatened when it's in a new environment: It's wondering things like Who am I? How do I fit in? What's my identity here? So I think, generally, a strong sense of self-worth would be important: Can the ego withstand losing sometimes, showing both others and itself that it's imperfect? If not, what does it do to compensate? And, more importantly as parents, how can we shore up the ego so it doesn't need to compensate, i.e., so it can withstand being imperfect, and admitting that publicly?**
But I also think it's just part of the whole "learning manners" landscape. We don't call people names, we say please and thank-you, we don't cheat at games or trip people in a race. Kids need to be taught all those things, and some kids learn them at two while others learn them at eight. Depends what their daily activities and interactions are, what they're exposed to.
And I think it's also important to acknowledge that competition isn't inherently bad. In fact, we started using it constructively with the Dragon, to challenge himself and, frankly, to hurry him along (I'm gonna beat you to the corner!) and to get him to do things he wouldn't otherwise do (Can you crunch a carrot louder than Daddy?). We let him win sometimes where the skills are unmatched, but we compete as equals when the skills are pretty equal, e.g., in a game of concentration or in the ongoing Carrot Crunching Wars.
* When I say "ego" I don't mean the bragging puffed-up type. That's false ego. I mean a self-concept that's healthy and resilient.
** I'm just doing some theoretical conjecturing here, not diagnosing anyone's kid, including Floor Pie's or my own.
wookie said:At what age, cognitively, emotionally and socially are kids able to understand that no matter how well or not well you do at something, that sabotaging or hurting other people is NOT OKAY?
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Permalink Reply by Floor Pie on -
It means another COLUMBINE!!! Run away!!!
Or maybe it just means our boys are destined for law school or Wall Street, where that sort of behavior is routinely rewarded.
But seriously... My son just turned six and is in kindergarten. The behavior is undesirable enough to entitle him to the school's counseling services. (We're so lucky to attend an elementary school with a counselor...most Seattle elementary schools are losing their counselors next year due to budgeting.) We just had a meeting yesterday to discuss the particulars.
My son has a lot of anxiety, and that has expressed itself in a variety of undesirable behaviors over the years. I will say that he makes great improvements every year and has a tremendous capacity for empathy. I have enough information to feel confident that he's not a budding sociopath. Maybe he's a budding asshole, but who isn't, in their own way.
I posted this to ask other parents who are dealing with something similar for their support and advice. If you're not dealing with something similar, well, how nice for you. Because this is not easy.
wookie said:What does it mean when it's seen in a very young child? At what age, cognitively, emotionally and socially are kids able to understand that no matter how well or not well you do at something, that sabotaging or hurting other people is NOT OKAY?
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Permalink Reply by wookie on
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Because this is not easy. No, it isn't. And just because I'm not dealing with the same issue you're dealing with, doesn't mean I'm not dealing with some doozies of my own.
I apologize if you feel I am being inappropriate in the context of what you were seeking. It was not my intention.
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Permalink Reply by mcglory13 on -
Wookie, I get what you're asking. And I run the risk of furthering the derail and the ire, but I have been told by child development experts that the higher level reasoning brain comes fully on around seven. So I think around then is the no more excuses age. Still, it's very frustrating even when you know their brain isn't fully developed.
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Permalink Reply by sockiboo on
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it sounds (from an admittedly tiny and anecdotal sample) like more people's boychildren deal with this sort of challenge than girlkids . . . just wondering if anyone's female children have similar struggles?
i'm glad you brought the subject up, floor pie (generally, i mean, not the gender part i just tacked on). it's just the kind of thing i get intimidated to ask my flesh friends who are parents over coffee.
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Permalink Reply by StitchyWench on -
It is very common for kids that age through early grade school to be competitive perfectionists. It's not the desired response for them to hurt others as an extension of that 'need' to be Top Dog, but aggression at 5 and 6 is still normal. If he is feeling left out, perhaps the others are not being kind to him, or perhaps he is some how feeling different or not included, he may be using aggression because he doesn't feel close enough to them to use his words to express himself. The most common way kids in their early grade school years deal with these issues is by telling tall tales. "Oh yeah, well you might have gone to the Mariners game this weekend, but I went to the opening game when Babe Ruth hit 25 home runs in the first inning!" But if the kids aren't including him in their conversations maybe being physical is the only recourse he feels he has left.
I also think it is interesting that he doesn't want to highlight any of his differences - he doesn't want to excel at math, probably not because he is being lazy but rather because anything that is not normal with the rest of the group makes him stand out or be seen as different. I especially wonder about this because he wants to be best at everything physical but not at math - that seems like a red flag to me. It is really hard for young grade school kids to feel different from everybody else. Maybe he needs to have different math as homework but not in class, or maybe he can work with a first grade math group. I would ask him a lot of open ended questions relate back to real life stories of your own or somebody you know who had a hard time feeling different from others.
It seems to be a big thing amongst the boys, in particular - this whole needing to best at certain thingns. They are very competitive, which probably reaches back to our society and the normative gender roles they see modeled all around them. Everyone has to be the best all of the freaking time. It's especially hard in early grade school because kids who are taught they don't have to be perfect are mixed with kids who believe they ARE perfect. And even those kids who've been taught that this isn't reality, lying is bad, we don't need to be the Mayor of Tops Town to be loved, see that there are suddenly kids around them who are loved by all exactly because they perceive themselves as completely Perfect.
You already seem to be doing most of the things that are important for him to get where he needs to be - being involved in the classroom and with homework, that shows you think school is important; socializing him outside of school with kids his age, especially classmates; have nightly conversations about what happened that day, ask open ended questions; and when he makes mistakes ask why he made that choice and brainstorm other options he could have chosen instead. As my Ya Ya always says, "Mistakes are our greatest learning tools!"
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Permalink Reply by Joe Mama on -
SW - I don't think FP was implying that he didn't feel the need to be perfect in math, just the opposite - he fears mistakes so much that he will shy away from any new challenge that might pose a risk to that perfection.
Just a thought - is he old enough to try the "I'm really good at this, and you are really good at that - but no one is good at everything!" approach? We worked this strategy with #1 son to emphasize that gifts come in many forms and not to get snotty because he was happened to be smart because his peers were really good at other things that were hard for him.
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Permalink Reply by StitchyWench on
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JM my daughter does the same thing, has for years, and with her I think she tries hard not to try at math because she already feels weird enough. I used to think she only wanted to be extra good at tge things that came easy to her, but now I'm certain she's been battling to fit in for tge last six years.
You're probably right, but I'd ask open questions to be sure.
Joe Mama said:SW - I don't think FP was implying that he didn't feel the need to be perfect in math, just the opposite - he fears mistakes so much that he will shy away from any new challenge that might pose a risk to that perfection. Just a thought - is he old enough to try the "I'm really good at this, and you are really good at that - but no one is good at everything!" approach? We worked this strategy with #1 son to emphasize that gifts come in many forms and not to get snotty because he was happened to be smart because his peers were really good at other things that were hard for him.
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