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Appropriate consequences
https://spreadsheets.google.com/viewform?formkey=dDl3b19YbFktYzFJQ1...
Help me out. I noticed when telling this story at the office that the answers divided really clearly depending on where people had grown up. So I'm curious if the trend continues.
Help me out. I noticed when telling this story at the office that the answers divided really clearly depending on where people had grown up. So I'm curious if the trend continues.
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Floor Pie on -
I think consequences need to happen right in the moment or they're abstract and kind of useless. In this scenario, the child doesn't get punished until the next day. ("No, you made a big mess yesterday and didn't clean it up. No paints for the rest of the week." Now you tell me. Does a five-year-old even remember what they did yesterday?)
Also, it's risky to say "No you can't do that thing that you really, really want to do" to a five-year-old and then go off to read a book. If I tell my son he can't use the computer, I need to either help redirect him to something he is allowed to do, or be present to really keep him the hell off the computer. Impulse control isn't quite 100% in small children.
So, for those reasons, I choose "inappropriate." The child already ruined her own toy, which is a natural consequence. I would have the child help clean up the mess, and I would tell her the paints are going in time-out for a few days. But putting her allowance toward a new tablecloth is, again, probably too abstract and too far removed in time from the incident to be effective on a five-year-old.
I grew up in the country.
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Permalink Reply by Boring User Name on -
I like the way that Floor Pie said what she said.
But, I guess I'm still confused about what deserved punishment--isn't art by nature messy? Or what was being punished-day 1 or day 2? Did she know she wasn't supposed to paint whatever she painted? Or whatever mess she made? Did she have the control to paint without making a mess? And she spent the whole afternoon doing it? I would let my child make just about any mess if it would keep him occupied for an hour. A whole afternoon--I might let him burn down the house.
I grew up in a small town.
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Permalink Reply by Bertha Waterbury on -
I like what Daria said - the whole afternoon of being occupied seems pretty incredible. I might rethink a book of matches too.
I think what's an appropriate punishment and what's not appropriate are all personal and really have to be based on the child as an individual and the family as a unit. As parents we are socializing our children into our culture first and then into society at large. They need to be able to understand the rules in their family home before they can make sense of the outside rules. I think our main job is to make sure they know what our expectations are and that we're clear of what the consequences will be. Although I just saw Alfie Kohn give a lecture and he has me rethinking the whole consequences thing.
Anyway, why not talk with the child and find out what he or she thought would happen and maybe even what he or she think the consequences of the actions should be. I've found when I let kids help me problem solve the lesson is internalized a lot more than when something is imposed on them. I'm not saying that you let them say, "my punishment should be going without my bath tonight" or something like that. But really explaining why what was ruined upset you and how it's making you feel.
I grew up in the suburbs, but I hated it.
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Permalink Reply by wookie on -
There are some really good points being made here, I think I understand better now what was meant by abstract, thanks to all those who chimed in.
I'll expand on what happened.
The initial day, where the initial mess was made, they kids tried to help clean up and that was when we discovered that the paint wasn't washable. I was fustrated and the paints went up on a shelf, with that "time out for a week" lecture. At that point I was just as upset with myself for not checking the washability of the paint.
Day 2, she approached me to paint again, I said no, and as I admitted, then wandered off to do other things. What I didn't realize was that the paints and brushes (although put away) were still within reach. Hence mess #2. Again, it was partly the mess, but more that she did something she was told not to do AFTER asking and being told no, and also the "accident" framing. We had a talk about how when you do something on purpose, it's not an accident. Just because you didn't mean something to get messy or broken doesn't change the fact that you chose to take that action.
She does have some piggy bank money, and she can earn the extra by doing extra jobs (picking up dog poo, cleaning out the van, fetching newspapers from the bottom of the driveway) in less than a week. So in my mind, a 1 week turnaround time for the punishment is concrete enough for this particular child.
I'll give it a few more days before figuring out how to post the results, so far it's similar to what I saw at work, where those who felt it was appropriate tended to be rural, and those who felt it was not tended to be urban. It will be interesting to see where the actual #'s end up, how strong a trend it really is.
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Permalink Reply by mcglory13 on -
"If that makes you feel unsafe, maybe you might want to think on why that is. You also used the word entrapment, offensive and judging which are fairly aggressive terms. I asked for clarification and tried to clarify my own statement."
Well, that's an easy one to answer. You sound incredibly hostile to me. Perhaps I wasn't reading your tone correctly, but I tried to answer what I thought was an abstract thought experiment and you countered by sounding (to me) defensive, aggressive, and hostile to me in general (I wasn't aware, actually, that we never agree. It's very interesting to hear that.).
I have no issue with discussing things with people who don't agree with me, but in this particular case it seemed like that was unwelcome.
As for my original point, many other people have said it well. I agree with Floor Pie pretty much across the board.
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Permalink Reply by wookie on
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Well, that's an easy one to answer. You sound incredibly hostile to me.
And yet, I attempted to use neutral terms and asked for clarification, noted that over the years you and I are often on different sides of an issue. What I thought was sort of ironic in your initial response was that you started with "I can't answer the question" but then proceeded to answer the question, which I found funny.
Why do you think I sounded "incredibly hostile" to you? I don't intend to sound hostile or be aggressive to anyone, so if there is something I'm typing that is coming across that way I'd like to ferret out the why. I spend my professional life online, so there's a pretty high risk for me if I am truly presenting myself poorly without being aware of it, sort of like the guy at the office who has bad breath but doesn't know it.
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Permalink Reply by Floor Pie on
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Quick aside: Dishwashing soap is great at getting out tough paint stains. You might need multiple applications, but it works really well.
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Permalink Reply by kanachick on -
She'd be lucky I didn't take a switch to her arse. Make her cut her own switch too... (kidding, I'm kidding...sheesh...I wouldn't make her cut it herself)
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Permalink Reply by jenra on -
It's only cruel if you encourage them to go for the thinner switches.
kanachick said:She'd be lucky I didn't take a switch to her arse. Make her cut her own switch too... (kidding, I'm kidding...sheesh...I wouldn't make her cut it herself)
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Permalink Reply by kanachick on
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But it makes such a lovely sound as it sails through the air...
jenra said:It's only cruel if you encourage them to go for the thinner switches.
kanachick said:She'd be lucky I didn't take a switch to her arse. Make her cut her own switch too... (kidding, I'm kidding...sheesh...I wouldn't make her cut it herself)
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Permalink Reply by DLBK on -
I might be joining this discussion too late, but I think making a 5 year old pay for something they've destroyed is too abstract. I think taking away the paints for a while is more of a reasonable punishment, along with having them help/hinder you to/from cleaning the mess. I'd lock away the paints or put them somewhere you know they can't reach; like others have said, impulse control isn't going to be great in most 5 year olds.
Also, for your sake, throw away the paints and buy washable :-)
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Permalink Reply by Joe Mama on -
Also late to the party, but...
I'm a product of the suburb but didn't have a problem with the idea of having a 5 year old pay for something if she/he values money - otherwise I think that many preschool kids find money in general to be abstract - desirable in general but vague since they don't know what $5 would have gotten. If she is saving toward something that has been delayed that makes sense.
A similar version I would see myself using is having a clear connection with extra chores that need to be done to "pay" for the item (taking the physical money out of the process). She has to do "X" four times to make up for the damage and that time has to come out of some clearly identified desirable time slot - no Dora/Barney/American Idol/Mythbusters for two weeks since she will be using that time for cleaning/sweeping/carrying/scrubbing toilets with tooth brushes.
I also agree that the problem is not so much the mess as the blatent disregard of your directions...this is a very handy "teachable moment" since the consequences of that disobedience is very concrete. In our house we are VERY big on consequences and have used the dreaded "so what do you think would be an appropriate consequence for this behavior?" on occasion.
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